Knicks Beat Bucks

Win #5 - 3 of 4 This was a statement game. No not to fire Isiah but to move Marbury. In yet another lethargic effort the Knicks were poised to lose to a pathetic Milwaukee Bucks club.

Then Marbury left the game with a shoulder injury. Like a Dawn of the Dead movie, the Knicks seemed to remember who they were just when things looked darkest. Even Isiah Thomas' Buster Keaton impression was tabled as the Knicks came back spectacularly.

My Marbury trade proposal is found in the previous post. The proof is in the winning.

No Way Back

Sorry to those of you who think the lottery is the way out of this conundrum, it isn't.

Everyone says Marbury is untradeable but I just put together a four team deal that I think works and I'll explain why later. Realgm Trade ID #4314026

Knicks trade Marbury to Memphis.

Memphis sends Damon Stoudamire to the Wizards.

Memphis sends Brian Cardinal to Seattle.

Memphis sends Mike Miller to the Knicks,

Seattle sends Earl Watson to the Knicks.

Washington sends Etan Thomas to the Knicks.

Memphis does it to save cash, lots of it. All three outgoing contracts are largely dross to a team going nowhere. Memphis puts up with Marbury for a year then trades him off for cap space and picks next year.

Washington needs a point guard and wants to dump Etan Thomas - perfect fit.

Seattle too wants to shed the overhead of three expensive point guards. Cardinal brings energy, backs up the Seattle back-court filling a truer need

The Seattle part of the deal is weakest in which case the Knicks absorb Cardinal as well who would fit nicely on the pine in the second unit.

The Knicks would start Watson at point, Miller at SG. Thomas joins the bench.

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Whether or not Marbury is traded or not is irrelevant. The Knicks have too much talent to suddenly cast their fate to the ping-pong balls or simply attempt to rebuild yet again.

For better or worse the Knicks are in refactoring mode. In other words, find a better combination of 12 guys to get the job done. The Knicks have to trade into a better combination with a secondary goal in mind. That is, to acquire lottery picks elsewhere.

But before the Knicks can trade their way out, Isiah has to look in the mirror and modify his mantra from playing the guys who will win to let go of the players who don't fit, then play the players who can win. Big difference.

Just as Marbury can be moved, so can Curry. Curry for Ilgauskas. Cleveland saves a few $ to sign the runaway. Or Curry and Jones for Rasheed Wallace - pure $ savings move by Detroit.

And Crawford must go as well. Crawford for Andre Miller, Rasho, or Nene.

Going back is not an option.

Liars

Today's papers are filled with the fiction that Boston did not intend to run up the score. for example at Sports Illustrated this;

'I'm never great in math,'' Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. ''So I couldn't figure out if we were up by 30. I wasn't even paying a lot of attention to it. But I knew we were playing well and, obviously, I looked.''

Robinson finished with 11 points - the only New York player in double figures.

Pierce and Allen scored 21 apiece and Garnett finished with 11 rebounds for the Celtics, who were coming off an overtime loss at Cleveland - just their second defeat of the season. Boston improved to 8-0 at home, and the Knicks remained winless on the road.

The Knicks were last within 10 points with 4:11 left in the first period. They didn't come within 20 after the Celtics took a 39-18 lead with 5:27 left in the second. Boston made it 30 points for good with 9:14 left in the third, and then extended it to 40 less than five minutes later.

Eddie House hit a 3-pointer to give Boston a 50-point lead, 93-43, with 8:53 to play in the game.

''It wasn't about the score, it was about us going out there and getting better,'' Pierce said. ''At one point, I didn't even know we were up 40 points.''

Bullshit. the Celtics were doing hamster dances on the sideline as though the men's room door were locked and they all had to go at once.

Hey, I don't mind playing hard and the score is the score but don't lie about this shit. The Celts not only ran up the score but got some cheap kicks out of doing it.

I'm okay with that. Really. But times do change and I can assure you we will be revisiting the theme.

At the end of the day, one point or fifty the Knicks lost. And at the end of the day Q's remarks remain spot on. The Celtics are little more than a team of long-time wannabe winners acquired through collusion of fellow ex-Celtics who have yet to win anything that matters.

Hamster dance to that tune.

Loss #10

A humiliating defeat at the hands of the Celtics who are on a roll. If this game doesn't re-establish a rivalry I don't know what will.

Lessons learned:

1. Boston has yet to learn a lesson in NBA manners. Watch how you treat the other team on the way up, you'll be seeing them again on the way down.

2. Reggie Miller is a pro's pro. His observations on the Knicks were measured, accurate, and fair while the rest of the TNT commentators were aping the "Fire Isiah" mantras and rehashing tired and pathetic cliches.

I think Miller sees great potential in the Knicks and says as much even in criticism - they are a joke because they should be winning. True.

3.) These players are breaking Isiah's heart and his back by destroying his credibility. He cares about them, he caters to them, and he is protective of them and they don't get it. I say this again and again - bring back Larry Brown at any cost. Brown is nothing like Isiah but Brown knows talent at the service level and he is a coach's coach. And Isiah has to step away from protecting players he cares about to creating a team that wins - Brown knows how to make that happen.

Will a guy like Brown piss off Dolan, Isiah, some players, and some fans? You bet. And it's a good thing.

4.) I advocated the acquisition of Curry at considerable cost believing (rightfully so) that players this big are just too rare not to take a flyer on. It is time to trade Eddy. He's been here long enough to make a difference and he hasn't. The Celtics so easily stripped him repeatedly that I felt bad for him. feeling bad for one of your own players means he don't belong here.

Jeffries and Lee can play center on a reconfigured Knicks team that emphasizes speed and agility rather than brute strength, say, a Phoenix East.

5.) Our starting unit is terminally dysfunctional. In fact we don't have a starting unit. We just have high-priced veterans who start - get rid of as many as we can.

We are no longer in a position to rebuild from scratch - we have a nice young core. but we carry veterans who have no future here. Rose needs to be traded to a contender. Ditto for Q. Sooner is better. Savvy vets can always be acquired late in January should our season correct itself.

So if we can't can't rebuild, what next? We need to get out of the state of denial about this team and trade our way toward a more cohesive and effective team.

#1 priority really must be a guy like Andre Miller. we need somebody who can distribute the ball.

6. ) Isiah would be wise to quit. He doesn't deserve being fired any more than LB did but it is all over for him. If not today then soon. I'm not advocating such a thing - just sayin'.

Rumble in a Foreign Garden

The nationally televised game tonight has the potential to be an instant classic. The Knicks have a lot to prove and spanking the Celtics would go a long way in establishing their legitimacy.

Mister Earl at Ultimate Knicks correctly observes,

Let's Get Ready to Rumble!

Like NYK resurrection stated so eloquently at the top - "here we go"

Bump it, if there are suspensions or fines, it ain't no big deal. We are the freakin' Noo York Knicks. We rumble for kicks and giggles. We scuffled with Denver just to get warmed up. We got plenty of reserves to make up the difference.

If Quentin gets tossed, big deal - he gets to rest his elbow and back

If Jeffries gets tossed - we still got Balkman

If Lee gets tossed, certainly the league office will go easy on him.

If Eddy gets tossed - we still have Zach (who actually STARTED the rumble)

If Marbury gets tossed, he becomes a fan favorite for showing passion. Nah, that's too easy, Marbury gets booed no matter what.

"Protect yourself at all times and come out fighting"

Send a message right in their backyard that the Knicks ain't takin' no ish offa nobody.

Get the Jiffy Pop ready people. The basketball season is about to get started.

Amen.

Knicks Beat the Jazz

Win #4 - 2 in a row. Nice win against a very good team. Marbury with a redeeming performance.

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On the trade front, if Philly has Andre Miller is on the block then Grunwald has to make the transaction. Trade no picks - not one.

Yes, Miller is slightly past prime but he is a perfect fit here and two good years is better than none.

Collins and Crawford for 'Dre - sign me up.

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As for Jermaine O'Neal - considering the risk - O'Neal and Rush for Jerome James, Malik Rose, and Q. Knicks roll the dice, Pacers save big $$. Knicks open roster spot.

Home Win over the Bulls

Win #3. Ugly but satisfying.

Skiles just got crossed off the "who's going to replace Isiah Thomas" coaching short list.

With the Knicks back at full strength, they are going to make the league sweat.

Kobe to Chicago?

I don't think so.

Hang in There

According to the New York Times the very idea of firing Isiah is unlikely because of the lawsuit's fallout.

To some degree this is a good thing. Isiah is not the problem nor is he a mad basketball engineer in putting this team together. For the most part he did the best he could with what he had and, in context, he acted wisely in the moment (Jerome James) even though subsequent events made the move look foolish.

A number of New York sportswriters just hate the guy which is their opinion and fine. But why do city editors allow these guys to use the power of the media to wage hate campaigns that are largely their own invention?

Isiah's pronouncement that he intends to hold the hand he's got may be short-lived. He may be stating the obvious by saying "now is not the time to make changes" knowing full well that Dec 15 will be the time.

Many are suggesting that Isiah ship Marbury out for Miami dreck - I don't see any advantage to such a move unless the point is to tank the season. Today, Marbury has no real value. Curry and Crawford do. And they are badly under-performing here. I would much prefer getting players back than garbage.

Andre Miller should be the number one priority. He's slightly past prime but solid enough for what we need. Philly might deal despite Larry Brown's presence.

An improbable trade that could help the knicks would move Jerome James, Q, and Malik Rose to Minny for Ratliffe, Jaric and Walker. Minny gets shorter contracts on two albatross contracts and more usable pieces since Walker and Jaric hate being there.

The Knicks get an aging, shot-blocking center to team with Randolph (Curry and Lee work best together) giving the Knicks a tag-team front-court combo. Jaric becomes a PG candidate, and Antoine Walker assumes Jerome James place in the dessert table line though Walker might have some game left if anyone gets hurt.

Just thinking aloud.

Loss to Detroit

Loss # 9.

Lee and Jeffries having their moments. This could have been winnable.

Loss to GS

Loss #8. This was a tough one because the fans let the team down. These guys don't need to be kicked any more nor does Isiah deserve the pure hate being rained upon him for coaching the team as he sees fit.

I am as upset and sickened by the losing as the next fan but the team must not be treated like dirt. Isiah has assembled a lot of quality pieces that are not yet meshing and bad games - real bad games - don't reveal bad players.

Character is who you are when you're not winning and New Yorkers should keep this in mind. Marbury and Randolph are playing with heavy hearts - would you want to be treated as badly as they when your time comes around?

I think changes are needed, yes I do. And the problem I have and had with the Larry Brown fiasco is that Isiah cannot be objective about the quality of these players. LB saw this team for what it was and he deserves an apology and a second chance to finish the job.

Quite frankly, Curry and Crawford have to go. My guess is that Detroit wouldn't mind losing Rasheed Wallace's salary and the Knicks could afford to take the chance. Curry and Jones for Wallace is fair and makes economic sense for both teams.

The Knicks can let Wallace's contract expire in a few years, Detroit gains fiscal stability and a 7' project. The Knicks needed Curry to be the star while Detroit simply needs Curry to do what he can. On Detroit, Curry could be very effective - in NY, he will never live up to the exaggerated expectations of the fans.

And Andre Miller is another player Grunwald should make a high bid for, say Crawford and change. We need a point who can and will distribute.

Isiah shouldn't quit or get fired but he must let go of wishful thinking about certain players.

Go Knicks

I'm expecting a win Tuesday night.

I like the idea of using Lee as a center surrounded by dual PFs. Lee adds a lot of mobility in the middle that would more than compensate for the inevitable ability of quick SFs to get past either Curry or Randolph on the wing. The experiment is worthwhile.

I like the fact that Dolan, Sr. basically has stated that he has bigger fish to fry. He does. This is just basketball and much as I love the Knicks, James Dolan makes bad enough decisions without being guided by the cut-throats in the media.

I'm not sure Isiah will survive the love-fest Isola and others are engaging in but now is not the time to fire him, if ever.

As I said before, When you're going through hell, KEEP GOING!

We'll turn a corner soon.

Loss to Denver

Loss #7. Somewhat expected as the Knicks are on a tough road trip and played into double OT the night before and Karl's Denver team was looking forward to the Knicks for all kinds of reasons.

Yes, things look bad but quite frankly we've fallen so fast, so hard, and so ungraciously that the last thing we should do is try cleaning house now.

If Isiah gets fired it will be because of a toxic New York media and because Dolan has demonstrated himself to be a self-serving and self-immolating owner.

What should happen is this;

Larry Brown needs to be coaxed back to fulfill his original contract. The season is not lost and he Knicks can and should still make the playoffs.

Crawford, Q, Rose. and Nate need to go for expiring contracts and picks. Jeffries, Lee, and Balkman need to rehabilitate fully. Curry needs to get in shape.

Buy out Jerome James now (what could we be keeping him for?)

Collins has got to be given the reigns (let Clyde teach him the ropes). He's all we got right now and we need to keep an eye out for a purely defensive back-up point.

We need a shot-blocker (that needs to be Isiah's mission as draft consultant and talent evaluator).

Hand Jerry West the Office of President of basketball operations.

Trade ideas: Curry and Jones for Rasheed Wallace. Detroit gets a more inexpensive center and decent bench player, Knicks get shorter contract and imposing inside presence. Detroit happy to unload Rasheed, NY ready to move on.

Nate Robinson for Brevin Knight and a Clippers pick. Nate could blossom in LA, Knight could Share Point with Collins. Knicks could use the pick.

Jamal Crawford and Renaldo Balkman for Andre Miller. We need a point guard, we just do.

Loss to Sacramento

Loss #6 - The third winnable game we lost. This one in double OT.

Deal With It

People need to calm down. The New York pitchfork and torch crowds are circling the Garden as if Frankenstein, the Wolfman, and the Mummy were hiding inside. Get a grip.

There's no place to send Marbury. Deal with it. That doesn't mean that a complementary trade can't help but Isiah is right on the money in calling out Marbury. The fallout certainly is unexpected and painful but the Knicks are too far down the road to turn back now.

Like the postcard says, "When you're going through HELL, keep going!"

Isiah has done a marvelous job reinventing the roster. Critics who don't understand the dynamics of NBA trades, buyouts, and signings insist that instant-gratification-magic-dust works but Isiah inherited a monumental mess and has delivered a positive return using what he had which wasn't much.

The Marbury fiasco makes it all look diminished and doubtful but under the dust-up lies a good team. Marbury can't be moved because there's no buyers offering something better.

But teams like Portland have good young PG prospects who can be negotiated away. Marbury needs to play the shooting guard position or come off the bench.

That means more roster changes. But now is the time. Early in the season when it is obvious the current roster has not gelled.

Kobe Fictions

Yesterday a report surfaced that Detroit would trade Rip Hamilton, Tayshawn Prince, picks, and more for Kobe.

I don't buy a word of it. Not unless Joe Dumars fell on his head. He would never undermine his players this way and Hamilton and Prince alone is far too high a price for Kobe.

This is a classic case of the Lakers getting crap offers for Kobe and attempting to salvage Kobe's and the Lakers' reputations by planting a whopper "rumor" in the MSM to try and falsely bid up Kobe's worth.

Alex Rodriguez has learned a sad lesson that Kobe has yet to understand, Nobody wants you that badly!

Nobody.

Update 11/18/07: Sure enough:

Nevertheless, the Bryant trade-rumor virus has spread east as a breathless radio report last week had the Pistons ready to send Tayshaun Prince, Richard Hamilton and draft picks to the Lakers before Bryant used his no-trade clause to reject the deal. Much like the similarly fictitious media and Internet reports of an imminent Bryant deal to the Bulls last month, there was no truth to it.

Loss to the Clippers

Loss #5. Inexplicable. This is the second year playing together, Isiah kept the core together, and this team acts as if they've never played together before.

The summer drama killed us.

And the league needs to examine the refereeing. Marbury and Curry can't get a fair shake out there. That's just wrong.

Even More Disturbing....

I'm being called an idiot in certain quarters for missing Larry Brown. Brown, IMO, was the last great chance for the Knicks to truly turn it around. The Garden is obviously a toxic place to work.

What is most disturbing about the entire Marbury affair is what Ian Thomsen correctly diagnoses as Marbury's sense of entitlement. Because I live between Boston and NY, I see the kind of single-minded determination Garnett brought to Boston.

Isiah did the right thing by calling out Marbury. This is not a charity. It's good that the Knicks get reminded. Marbury has become a spoiled rich kid, a consumer parody of a basketball player. Like Penny Hardaway and Allan Houston, Marbury is raedy for a golf tour, or shoe expo, or something else but not a burning desire to win every game and it is sad.

There are doom sayers out there who think this is ugly and "bad" but truthfully it just reminds me of that crazy, gifted bastard Billy Martin's days in NY. I miss Larry Brown.

But even Zeke, a pale coaching comparison to Brown, recognizes that Marbury must step aside. Had Zeke recognized this earlier he might have drafted Marcus Williams as many of us lamented at the time. The Knicks need Collins to step up and I think he will (tho not tonight - sprained ankle).

The Knicks are turning an awkward corner. Our best players are just kids who belong on the floor because they care and bring it.

So bring it.

Shades of Summer

Ian Thomsen's Inside the NBA column is the best I've read today. Check it out.

While the Knicks deserve ridicule for the outlandish contracts they've awarded over the years, they also deserve some credit for owning up to those mistakes and buying out the contracts. Far better to open up the roster spot than to compound the original mistake by tying up room on the bench.

Do they buy out Marbury? When I played the longshot and picked the Knicks to finish sixth in the East this season, it was based on the assumption that they would rely more on young point guards Nate Robinson and Mardy Collins at the expense of Marbury, who -- if he would accept it as humbly as Manu Ginobili has in San Antonio -- could be an excellent sixth man as a microwave off the bench. Statistically, Marbury is their best point guard, but he isn't what they need anymore. With scorers Randolph, Curry and Jamal Crawford dominating the lineup, the Knicks need a distributor and defender starting in the backcourt. But, of course, Marbury is going to view a change in his role as a demotion.

Blowout in Phoenix

Loss #4.

The story of this game will be the emergence of Wilson Chandler.

What's happening with the Knicks is what must happen - the old guards giving way to the new. Collins looked like the point guard of the future. Stephon, if he stays, must move to the two. Chandler is our SF candidate, not Balkman.

Crawford needs to move to the deep bench.

Look for lineups of Randolph, Lee, Chandler, Marbury, and Nate to get the Knicks going again with Curry, Jones, and Balkman supplying energy off the bench.

I expect Rose and Crawford to get shopped hard.

Curry plays better next to Randolph. As a standalone center, he knows not what to do. He was better with Tyson Chandler as well - a complementary big man, not a superstar.

I can't help but wonder if Crawford and Lee's poor play is not playing possum to dodge trade bullets. Spree did the same thing years ago.

I'll be surprised if Marbury moves.

I miss Larry Brown.

BlackBishop on the Marbury Situation

One of Realgm's most trusted posters reports an altercation on the Knicks plane between Marbury and Isiah that precipitated Marbury's excused absence.

The OP claims Malik Rose wants out.

Update:

A second credible source at Realgm (HellsKitchen) claims these assertions are true.

Berman of the Post on Marbury

Berman has an inside line:

Marbury had bolted in a huff, flying for home amid an apparent feud with Thomas over his starting role, leaving his future as a Knick in serious doubt.

Marbury landed in New York about 4 p.m. and said in the message to The Post, "I have one thing to say, and that's I got permission to leave. I would never leave my team on my own. What I’m telling you is that I got permission to leave from Isiah. He said I could go home. God bless. Peace be with you."

Marbury added he was not expecting to join the team in Los Angeles tomorrow night.

"No, I'm not coming to LA as of now," he said.

Marbury MIA

My, my. Isiah seems to be challenging Marbury to step it up. From Howard Beck at the Times;

Marbury traveled with the team from New York to Phoenix on Monday, but he left Phoenix early Tuesday morning, possibly to return to New York. He also has a home in the Los Angeles area, where the Knicks play Wednesday night. The Knicks would not say where Marbury had gone, but Thomas at one point said, ”We look forward to seeing him tomorrow.”

Thomas declined to say whether Marbury left of his own volition or whether he was asked to leave. Thomas called it ”an in-house matter,” a phrase he invoked 12 times in a seven-minute interview after the team’s shoot-around. The coach also repeatedly stressed that Marbury is welcome to return, though in what role he would not say.

Tension between Marbury, once considered the face of the franchise, and Thomas – who acquired Marbury in a 2004 trade – seems to stem from Marbury’s contributions to the Knicks’ poor start (2-3). He has been indifferent on defense and erratic on offense, most notably in the final minutes of Sunday’s 75-72 loss to the Miami Heat.

Marbury is averaging 15.2 points and 6.8 assists in five games this season, while shooting 40 percent from the field. However, those are not the things that most concern Thomas.

”We need leadership from that position at the point guard, and we also need defense,” Thomas said. ”And those are two things that he’s definitely capable of doing. And when he returns, that’s what I expect out of him. I expect him to lead from that position and I expect him to defend from that position. Those are the only two things that I require from that position.”

Loss to Miami

A second unacceptable loss, loss #3.

No backcourt? It's getting old.

Loss to Orlando

Turnovers did us in, Loss #2.

Ron-Ron We Hardly Knew Ye

Balkman made a statement that both Sacramento and LA should take heed of, the Knicks no longer need Artest as a lock down defender at the SF position Balkman is not leaving any time soon.

For Kobe and the Lakers, the chances of dealing with the Knicks are diminished not, as widely reported that the Knicks don't have the goods, but precisely because the Knicks aren't parting with the goods.

The respective GMs who have so often denigrated the Knicks talent pool will choke on that stew for the coming months and years. Bon appetite.

Now THAT!

THAT's what I'm talkin' about!

Win #2.

Nice job, Knicks.

Thank You

Megan Roberts has been found.

Now it's time for the Knicks to beat the Nuggets.

Go Knicks!

Pop Quiz: Pet Peeves

Jen Stein at Radar Magazine has put together a very interesting quiz asking the question; What makes the public angrier: Dog abuse or human abuse?

An interesting and disturbing look at sports values.

A Win is a Win

Knicks beat Minnesota just a while ago and I actually got to see bits and pieces of the game. Winning is always better than losing but this was another ugly outing. The Knicks should have handed Minnesota their heads - Minnesota largely little more than a team of castaways.

The best player of the game was Lee whose rebounding and intangibles just make everybody look better out there. The most over-rated performance was Crawford's. Yes he got 24 points but my god his defense was just atrocious McCants wanted to take it to him all night long.

The second worst performance was Curry. The man has got to rebound - something he picked up in the second half but he and Zack have to own that paint.

Honorable deficient performance goes to Balkman who allowed Gomes to blow by him at the half way mark - just a dumb play - enough to keep Minny in it.

But it is becoming obvious the starting unit is window dressing - it was not until the second unit came on that the Knicks looked like winners. The Crawford/Curry coupling is bad basketball and Isiah needs to break this tandem up a bit. Or trade them.

My fascination with Curry is just about over. If Isiah packaged Curry, Crawford, and change for Kobe and Kwame, I think the trade would work out fine in both directions. Right now the Knicks "starting unit" is disappointing at best.

Remembering John Woodruff

His obituary shows up in the LA Times this way. And it is an insight into the relationship of sports and character. Knicks fans can only hope our team steps up compete as wholly as a Woodruf did so many years ago.

John Woodruff, the black American runner who won the 800 meters in the 1936 Berlin Olympics in the face of Adolf Hitler and his "master race" agenda, has died. He was 92.

Woodruff, the last surviving gold medalist from that U.S. team that included the legendary runner Jesse Owens, died Tuesday at an assisted living center near Phoenix, said Rose Woodruff, his wife of 37 years.

Nicknamed "Long John" for his nearly 10-foot stride, Woodruff was a lanky 21-year-old freshman at the University of Pittsburgh with just three years of competitive running under his belt when he sailed to the racially charged scene in Berlin.

On Aug. 4, 1936, he won the 800 meters using one of the most astonishing tactics in Olympic history. Boxed in by the pack of runners, he literally stopped in his tracks, then moved to the third lane and passed everyone to win the race in 1:52.9.

"I didn't panic," Woodruff told the New York Times in 2005. "I just figured if I had only one opportunity to win, this was it. I've heard people say that I slowed down and almost stopped. I didn't almost stop. I stopped, and everyone else went around me."

He was the first black athlete to win a gold medal at the Berlin Games.

The obituary contains even more astonishing sports feats.

Help Find Megan Roberts

Megan was found in early November!